What If ?

[richard]

What if Germany by passed Poland and attacked Russia on September 3rd 1939 ?

With this course of action France and England may have not declared war on Germany allowing Germany to concentrate her armed forces against Russia and in Eastern Russia Japan attacked there flank this could have defeated Russia lets say by 1942 with that victory Hitler could have then turned west wards in 1944 and won the European war by 1945.

What do you think post your comments.

Richard

[MarshalLaw]

Possible, There was no love lost between England and Russia. In fact the only reason Churchill put up with Stalin was to maintain that 2nd front. His thinking was to let Russia take the pressure off England, better to let Russian troops die than British. But hind sight is always 20/20. Germany made many mistakes that cost them the war. The main problem being Hitler himself.

[richard]

Good point lets say Hitler put Field Marshal Eric Von Manstin in charge of the Eastern Front as he is regarded as the greatest field marshal and he appointed the army group generals and lets say the army was given winter clothing so here we are September 1939 so how far would they have advance by December 1939.

Richard

PS who would you select for army groups North, Center and south. After some posts I will post my choice

[MarshalLaw]

By Dec 1939 They may have pushed as far as St. Petersburg ( Stalingrad). If they were smart they would stabilize the lines in the north. Then push hard in the south to the rich oil fields . Once they were secure then wait for spring and drive to Moscow.

As far as who would command the different army groups not sure, but to spearhead the drive south...Rommel

[MarshalLaw]

Forgot to add this. Once springtime hit, make a 2 prong attack to the northern Russian ports and drive up the center to Moscow. By controlling the northern Russian ports that cuts off aid from the US & England, who by now are starting to get nervous. Have Japan to start hitting the eastern Russian Manufacturing sites. create a 2 front war by summer of 1940. By 1941-1942 Russia would be crushed similar to what happened to Germany after D-Day.

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw Rommel for army group south yes good choice yes I would go along with that one as for army group north Blaskowitz and Reichenau for army group center.

Just one little point I think you mean (Leningrad) which reverted back to it's former name St Petersburg (Stalingrad) is now Volgograd.

As for how far the Germans would get by Dec39 I will get back to you on that one soon.

Richard

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw I have the answer for you on how far the Germans would have got from Sept39 to Dec39 taking into count Russia's lack of roads and the Russian winter I think the first phase of the operation would be in the north taking all the ports so army group north would be the strongest then center finally south or so my moving all the U-Boats and there Capital ships in to the Baltic Sea to strangle hold the area any way back on land by December 1939 I think the front line would run from north to south as Narva to Pskov onward to Vitebsk or may be Smolensk in central Russia and on to southern Russia Korosten and Vinnitsa and finally Kishinev stabilize the front line for the spring offensive.

Richard

[MarshalLaw]

Hey Richard,

Possible that is as far as they get, a lot would depend on the weather and how soon the snows start. The one thing I disagree with is that the northern ports for the most part will be there in the spring The allies will be slow to gear up aid to Russia. Keep about 20-30 uboats on station in the northern sea area and wolf pack any conveys foolish enough to make the run. I still believe the best coarse for them is to push as far as possible until late Nov. in the north and central and stablize the lines until spring Then push all winter in the south and secure the oil fields.

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

Good point about the ports so we are now in March 1940 phase two is now under way lets say Stalin has ordered a ring of steel around Moscow during the winter low and has replaced the loss of troops or so some unsettling news from Japan has stated they are planning to invade more of the far east and from August 1940 which could bring England and the U.S.A in to the war. And some good news as from May 1940 Finland attacks Russia so phase two objects where do you attack.?

Richard

[MarshalLaw]

Hey Richard,

For phase 2 staring in the spring of 1940. Make a hard push in the north and capture all remaining northern ports. That would allow supplies to be shipped in as well as overland express. With the south secure along with the rich oil fields, have Rommel gas up and start to push the right flank, angling to Moscow. Continue in the center with a new spring offensive with a steady push toward Moscow. Have Japan to start the 2nd front in late spring or early summer. During the winter and spring, Japan is to bomb every Russian manufacturing site that is in range.

with that kind of pressure Russia will go down Mid to late 1941. After that Germany can turn it's attention to wards Europe.

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

Time line is now late June 1940

Sound good plan OK the ports are lost Leningrad has fallen Starlin has ordered the defense of Moscow and he has now open talks with Japan and has offered them a good slab of eastern Russia which is music to Japan as they want to invade more of the far east or so France has sent troops into the Rhine land now Germany is facing a tricky situation Hitler needs to keep Japan in the war against Russia but he is or so angry at France and may start a war with them and more bad news due to the drive on to Moscow one Million Russians troops have escaped Starlin has abandon Kiev to the Germans in a desperate act to save Moscow these troops are now on the Moscow defense front so how do you keep Japan in the war and push on in Russia and course try to prevent a second front in Europe.

Richard

[MarshalLaw]

Hey Richard,

To keep Japan in the war attacking Russia, Offer Japan access to to oil fields in the south that are now under German control. Japan needs raw material namely oil to keep their war machine running. Dangling that carrot in front of them should keep them in line.
As for the million Russian troops that are ringed around Moscow, surround them on all sides, pound them with air attacks and arterity. Mainly starve them out. You have 2-3 months before the winter hits. With no supplies coming in, whatever supplies the Russians stored up will be gone in that time frame. This part of the offensive will be a waiting game, siege warfare.
As for France play the diplomatic card, keep them on the sidelines as long as possible. Lie do whatever you have to to keep their troops out of the action. A 2 front war may happen, but it will not be Germany throwing the first punch. Which will help with world opinion.

Then after Russia is finished attack the French and drive them into the ground.

[MarshalLaw]

One thing I forgot to add, With Japan Offer them close to land what the Russians offered. That way by adding the oil access you up the best Russian deal.

The wild card in all of this is England, what will they do? In the current time line of June 1940 will they continue to sit on the sidelines or side with the French. If Chamberlain is still prime minister, he will look for a peaceful solution, which should keep them out of the action. As for the US, they may send supplies to Europe but they will not commit troops unless England is attacked. By the time the US or England enter the war it will be Mid 1942 or early 1943. Long after Russia is defeated. By then Germany will have a 300 uboat fleet with the improvements they would have developed by then. Also the surface Navy should be stronger with the addition of a few more Bismark type Battleships. Maybe even a aircraft carrier.....

[Dominico Baggio]

You guys are forgetting what the russians planned to do if moscow fell.

They would have done as they did against napolean, they had already moved their factories ect into the urals. They were destroying things as they retreated. German equipment was over engineered and didnt work in the cold of the far east. Could russia not have built up strength and tanks and then counterattacked the same as they did in real life?

[richard]

Dominico this is a what if situation this is only one of many ways the war could have gone and its only for personnel interest I like to see what the other person thinks its just fun how about you create a situation how about a U-Boat one? I'm sure you can think up something.

Richard