Debt to the Russian people....

[longdog499]

I've just been watching the V.E. day celebrations from Red Square in Moscow and it made me think of the debt the free world owes the Russian people.The sacrifices they made were immense,sacrifices which no other country fighting the Nazis could have or would have sustained.I read somewhere once that one out of three German soldiers who died in World War II,died in Russia.

[Stryker]

Well you are partly right, they did sacrifice, HOWEVER a majority of Russians were pro German against Stalin, that changed with German autrocities against the Russian people which rallied them to defense against the German army .. Bad Timing, Bad Commanders, and some REALLY BAD tactical decisions lost the Eastern Front ... And mainly without the British and US convoys and supplies sent to Russia there would have been NO Russian army to fight with

[con20or]

plus if they had tried to retreat etc. ol' joey stalin would have had them made into borsch.

[longdog499]

Yes,all those things are true but the people of Russia and especially the people who made up the Red Army still had to pay the butcher's bill at the end of the day.I don't doubt that any of them would rather not have made the sacrifices they were forced to make but make them they did and they bore the brunt of the Nazi's savagery and soaked up massive punishment that the Allies would have had to have taken if Russia had not been in the war.Operation Barbarossa was surely Hitlers greatest mistake.

[faamecanic]

You also had to remember that the Russian people had little choice in fighting the Germans. And as others have stated, had the Russian soldier (conscript) retreated he would have been made into Borsch.

I know if someone tried to run into my country, raping and killing like a group of barbarians.... I would fight them to the death. Even if it ment throwing rocks at tanks!

The Germans were not too nice to the Russian population of areas they rolled through. So by the time the Russians actively fought the Germans... they were DEFINATELY not pro-hitler. They didnt like Stalin either... but they surely HATED the Germans.

Just ask any Berliner that was alive during that time what the Russians did as they rolled through Berlin!

Not that I want to take anything away from that poor Russian conscript that was told "If you retreat you will have a Commisar shoot you for treason".... but I feel the real debt is owed to the UK for the heroism of the RAF and the Royal Navy for holding Hilter back until the USA got off its arse to declare war on Hilter.

[con20or]

barbarossa was definetly his greatest mistake. napoleon did the same thing,and that ruined him as well.

[richard]

Hello all this is a area of the war that I am well up on to start with don't forget Starlin had carried out a mayor purge of the army in 1937 many middle and higher ranked officers were executed on Stalin's orders.

The war with Finland 1939-1940 was a bloody mess granted the Russians won but at a very heavy cost and when Hitler attacked the U.S.S.R June 22nd 1941 the red army was almost wiped out and by the end of 1941 Stalin was wondering to surrender.

The set back for the Germans was they failed to take Moscow in 1941 yes they went on to take southern Russia in 1942 by early 1943 Stalingrad was the deepest point of penetration and in July 1943 the greatest ever tank battle in history marked the end for the Germans.

KEY POINTS
1. Barbarossa was to be launched in April 1941 but was delayed due to the Balkens campaign

2. A war on two fronts was very risky, Frederic the Great Maxims"He who defences everything defences nothing"

3.Hitler took over all decisions in 1942 and ran the war his way unlike Stalin after the mess to retake Kharkov in 1942 let his generals run the war

These are the three key points there are course many more it is true to say if the correct decisions were taken by the Germans they could have knocked the U.S.S.R out of the war they came close but at the end of the day Russia had more man power to use as this was the case by late 1941 the eastern population rebuilt the Soviet army.

As for the u-boats attacking the convoys to Russia two little in numbers

And don't forget Stalins death total is about 25 million and Hitler's is about 12.5 million and if you were to ask who was the greater mass murderer a good 95% would say Hitler wrong !!!

To sum up the Soviet army was learning how to fight by mid 1942 long gone the great German encirclements Stalingrad showed the Soviets they could win a battle and Kursk showed them they could win the war Russia payed a very heavy cost in men and women to liberate their land.

Richard

[rommel]

First off, their were russian soliders that joined the german side (look it up) and while the germans did alot of bad things to the russians. The red army is not that nice ether mainly what they did to poland during the war.The Katyñ Forest Massacre, which was the mass execution of Polish citizens about 22,000 cilvlains died and they did this in the 1940's and tried to blame it on the germans to cover it up. Now im not saying that makes what the germans did alright ,but the russian army had its dark side too. One more thing not all germans where hostile to the russian population alot where but a good amount of germans had notthing to do with that and where just soliders doing their job .when the order came down to excute russian offciers a alot of germans wouldn't do it . It wouldbe like me saying that all of the russian army had something to with that Massacre ,but alot russian soliders were a bunch of poor bastards that were thrown into the war.However there were some volunteers specifically the russian women snipers most of whom died during the war.

[richard]

Hello all just a footnote the war on the Eastern Front was a war of annihilation two extreme view points clashed with each other the cost was terrible the conflict made the Western Front look like a side show for example at the height of the battle of Stalingrad the life span of a Soviet private solider was 24 hours both sides carried out brutal and barbaric acts a war with no rules.

Richard