What If ?

[MarshalLaw]

Stalin would not have given up Moscow, his ego would not let him. True they would have had a scorched earth policy. Most smart commanders would do this, deny your enemy any help at all. Moving their industry to the Urals would make sense, however you figure as the Germans moved east so did their air bases. Setup re-con sites in the Urals, find the factories and bomb anything that came or went. The factories might be safe but if you have no raw material to work with, what good is it?
as for German over engineering that is true, the panther and Tiger tanks had many problems and the cold does not help anything, just like the desert sand ( ask the US in IRAQ)

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

Time line October 1940 - March 1941

Some good points made but if you do cut off Moscow the price of that would be high and another point the Southern front has been moving to slow this would have let the Russians to build up there forces at Stalingrad and move back some of there factories you are now facing a threat from the south to add to your problems partisans are attacking all over the place in the rear at this stage just a pain but if they start to get organize this would be a nasty situation.

Japan has invaded Singapore England has entered the war against Japan and on the French border the French army is building up as your talks with the French go on as you stall for time
Japanese forces have surfed a set back in the winter months and lost some ground but Japan will remain in the war against Russia for now your time is running out Russia must be defeated its now March 1941 and some news has come your way Stalin wants to talk but remember Stalin may be stalling or wants to bring about an end to the war.

Your Move.
Richard

[MarshalLaw]

Hey Richard,

March 1941, Moscow has held out all winter due to air lifting supplies into Moscow under Very heavy Russian fighter escort. Losses for the Russians in aircraft alone are over 50% over 300,000 of the 1 million Russian troops have died of disease , starvation & fighting. The Germans have Moscow completely encircled and control everything west of the Volga river.
In the north all sea port are secure and elements of army group north have pushed as far as the Ural Mountains, also the Northern group has linked up with the center army group and control everything north of Moscow to the sea.
In the south Army group south controls everything west of the Volga river all the way down to the Caucasus Mountains. also a route has been cleared from the black sea area Thur the Suez canal so Japan as access to the oil fields. The Partisans are little threat mainly under ground type attacks and raids, but are contained and under control. The army group tried to take Stalingrad, but by splitting their forces to push north to Moscow, it proved to be "a bridge too far" The army group retreated back across the Volga. and stabilized lines there.

France continues to build up along its borders but the talks seem to be working, so far the French are sitting tight. With England's attention to Japan they have paid Germany little attention. Uboat and surface navies are under strict orders not engage British shipping.

Stalin has offered up some talks but there are so many conditions that the German high command has rejected them , Unconditional surrender is Stalins only option now. There is also a rumor that Stalin has ordered the defense of Moscow to the last man, there is also rumor of a possible assassination of Stalin in the works to save the rest of the Russian troops in a hopeless situation. Moscow is starting to run out of supplies again due to bad weather and pure lack of available aircraft. German field commanders estimate that the city has about a week of supplies left. Moscow could be in German control by the end of April. Hilter has hinted he wants to see a Russian surrender by June.

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

Time line April 1941

Hitler rec'd news Italy has attacked France good progress at first but now bogged down resulting in break down in talks with Germany, France has declared war on Italy and Germany the troops on the Rhine have moved forward in to Germany.

May 1941

Germany has stopped the French army peace talks back on Hitler demands Italy to withdraw further bad news Japan has been forced to pull troops out of Russia and Moscow still has not fallen some good news rec'd Starlin is in Moscow radio message intercepted Starlin wants France to attack again and wants England in the war.

June 1941

German troops have entered Moscow bitter fighting slow progress Japanese forces have suffered a major blow a large Soviet tank army has smashed there lines and army group south has a set back force to pull back and regroup France has withdrawn her troops from the German border but Italy will not back down

July 1941

In a surprise move by Japan midway and Pearl Harbor have been attacked America has entered the war and Japan has started to scale down its forces in Russia not what Hitler wanted good news rec'd Moscow has fallen but Starlin has escaped army group south is on the move again

August 1941

Stalin is in Stalingrad two million troops from the east have turned up the large tank force is on its way Japan has stopped all operations in Russia never the less Hitler is in a good mood could this be the final blow?

Your Move
Richard

[MarshalLaw]

Always throwing me a new curve ball...... This one I need to think on. I need to be able to tie all these different twist together , and it make sense. I will leave you with this, Stalin does not get off that EASY.....

Talk to you soon Richard.

[MarshalLaw]

Hey Richard,

May 1941: Hitler meets Mussolini in Vienna to discuss the French situation. Hitler convinces the Italian leader to withdraw his troop and redeploy on the Russian front. Mussolini does not want to loose face with the withdraw and delays withdrawing his troops until the end of the month. On 6/1/1941France withdraws from Germany and again takes up positions on their border. Italy then begins to move 550,000 troops and equipment in the direction of Stalingrad. They arrive in the Area 6/25/1941.

6/10/1941Moscow is taken, Stalin is rumored to have fled Moscow to Stalingrad. However on 6/18/1941 Stalin is captured in a corporals uniform trying to flee Moscow.He is interrogated and reveals that 2 million troops and a 1000 tanks are massing near Stalingrad to try to break through to the Caucasus because they are so short on fuel. The Tanks are on rail cars and expect to be in the area around first week of July.
General Zhukov (acting head of the Russian army realizes time is against him. He must break through the German line and secure the oil fields if not Russia is doomed.His remaining Fuel reserves are mobile so he divides them up on 4 groups as they travel with the tanks. The rail system 250 KM from Stalingrad is smashed so the tanks are forced to go the rest of the way on their own burning up limited fuel on the way.

Meanwhile Rommel learns of the plan from German high command. He orders the Luftwaffe to attack anything mobile that can carry fuel with tanks as a secondary target. Over 750 fighters, bombers , and dive bombers begin to pound the approaching tanks and supplies. the russians counter with over 350 fighters. Causalities were high on both sides but the damage was done. 65% of the fuel reserves were destroyed, along with 200 tanks and 125 aircraft. The German lost over 350 aircraft total. On 7/2/1941 he remaining tanks arrive on station near Stalingrad. On 7/3/1941Zhukov learns that over 1/2 million Italian troops are on the German lines. His once 3-1 advantage is now down to 2-1. and the Germans controlled the skies, and with not enough fuel the situation is grim. After meeting several days with his general staff. Zhukov surrenders the Russian army on 7/11/1941 Russia is defeated. A side note:( convicted of war crimes Stalin is executed 12/31/1942)

With Japan bringing The British and America into the war, Hitler denounces the act and expels all Japanese ships and personnel from German soil. 10 tankers are seized in the Black sea and returned to Odessa to offload their oil before going home. Hitler is not ready to tackle the Brits and the US yet, so since Japan opened Pandora's box let them deal with it.

9/1/1941 Hitler looks to the west for his next move......

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

Well done I will think about another one the next one will be different get back to you soon

Richard

[MarshalLaw]

No No... don't start from scratch, lets continue from here and see how the whole thing turns out. Start at 9 1941 and move forward from there. Hitler turns his attention west.......... Japans advances in the pacific.........

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

Ok carry on with this one need a think let you know soon

Richard

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

Timeline Sept 41 - Apr 42

September 9th 1941

Japan fills its been stabbed in the back by Germany but due to her commitments else where decides not to start a war with Germany and withdraws all troops from eastern Russia but as an final act of getting back at Germany all Russian prisoners are set free resulting in the war in Russia to carry on as a gorilla war partisans have caused lot of damage in the rear but now German troops have been freed up to deal with the problem in western Russia as for eastern Russia no decision taken

October 1941

Hitler holds talks with his generals decision taken first to deal with the partisans and then to rebuild the army with the bulk of troops in Russia Hitler not happy about the situation in the west Hitler sends Mussolini a secret message step up your war with France object of this is stalling for time and playing a game of bluff with France

November 1941

Italian French conflict stalls and both sides dig in

December 1941

Singapore and the Phippines fall to Japan latter that month Guam falls as well
in Germany Hitler steps up scientific research and celebrates his victory over Russia

February 1942

American task force heading for Guam has been destroyed
In Russia partisans attacked Field marshal Rommel who just escaped Hitler is angry and demands a greater effort in dealing with the partisans once and for all

March 1942

Hitler draws up plans to attack Poland his general staff fear this would bring Britain in to a war against Germany and as a chain result America as well Hitlers generals draw up a different plan to cut Poland off with out crossing in to Poland Hitler goes away to think about this new plan latter in the month Hitler rec'd news France has won the war against Italy in a private meeting with Himmler Hitler remarks Italy has done its job buying him time

April 1941

China is finally defeated after a long war with Japan in the same month Japans troops have taken Burma Borneo and new guinea in America news has been released u.s troops are fighting to win back Guam and in Germany Hitler ops for his plan Poland to be attacked in June 1941 in Russia partisans have suffered a set back and regroup them selfs and go into hiding

Richard

[MarshalLaw]

Hey Richard,

September-1941
German high command recall element of the North , Center, and South army groups for rest and repair. Italy's 550.000 troops are used as a occupation force & to help the Germans stabilize Russia. Russia 725 remaining tanks & equipment are shipped back to Germany for refit and upgrade to German standards. With Japan freeing 200,000 Russian prisoners as they withdrew from Russia upset Hitler. The condition of the men are poor and it will be some time before they can be much of a fighting force, plus they are 1500 KM away from the western lines.

October 1941:
Hitler holds talks with his general staff to address the partisans in Russia & the long term plan of how to handle the French. Elements of the Italian troops are recalled back to the Italian /French border in late October Both sides appear to be digging in for a WWI type of stand off. Long term plans call for a possible invasion of France by spring of 1942, The invasion or annex of Poland is also discussed.

Nov. 1941:
The Italian and French lines have stabilized and the rest of Italy's troops withdraw from Russia. Japan continues it's push in the pacific with attacks starting in the Philippines, Guam and wake island.

Dec. 1941 :
The war in the pacific is going very well for Japan, the Philippines, Guam and wake Island, fall. Indonesia is invaded and a push for the rich oil region near port Mosby is underway. Australia is isolated. The Americans have withdrawn all forces to midway and Hawaii , in order to regroup and rearm for a counter offensive . Hitler celebrates his victory over Russia with a may day style parade through the streets of Berlin.

Jan. 1942:

Hitler ups funding for scientific research on rocket type weapons and a possible atomic bomb. That same month German completes it's 1st carrier the Berlin along with another Bismark class battleship The Rhineland. Improvements on the submarine front continue with successful sea trials of the new type XXI uboat. Uboat fleet strength is close to 250 boats.

Feb. 1942:
American Task force 54 is ambushed near Guam and Destroyed by a Japanese force of over 6 carriers. The Carrier Enterprise is severely damaged but manages to escape but the Hornet, Battleship Nevada, and 12 other ships are sunk. American Industry goes into high gear to replace the lost ships and carriers. The west American coast and Hawaii, are on high alert and a massive buildup is underway. Rommel escapes a attack at his head quarters by a growing Partisan movement in Russia. Hitler meets with his General staff to come up with a final solution to this problem.

March 1942:

With the growing threat from the Russian partisans, The French invasion has been pushed back. Final plans are in place once the partisan situation is stabilized. Hitler meets with the Polish leadership to try to form a alliance . But the Poles reject the offer. Hitler is angered and wants to attack, however the general staff convince him to rethink, because of fear of bringing England and the US into the war against Germany. Late Mar. Hitler learns the Italians are close to defeat. Mussolini ask for German help, Hitler considers the request.

April 1942:
Hitler op for plans that Poland be attacked early June with the French invasion to start 1-2 weeks later. The partisan solution seems to be working in Russia, several key leaders have been killed or captured and several, recent attacks have gone very badly for the Russian partisans. The remaining forces have fled to the Ural mountains and gone into hiding. In the Pacific Japan has finally won their war in China, China has a partisan movement as well and has gone into hiding to regroup and rearm. Indonesia as a whole as been taken and Australia is completely cut off from outside aid. American force are massing for a powerful counter strike at Guam.

[MarshalLaw]

April 1942: First to 2nd week.

Germany will not send troops to the Italian front , but do agree to send 200 Russian upgraded tanks to the Italians, for their help with the Russians. Germany also meets secretly with the Italian general staff to help them stabilize their lines with the French. Italy is hanging on by a thread at this point . In Hawaii, the Americans have raised and repaired the Utah, and West Virgina. The Yorktown that was in port during the Pearl Harbor attack is still a month away from being operational. In San Fransisco 2 new Carriers are being ready for sea. The Franklin, and new Hornet. American industrial might is even surprising the American general staff.

[richard]

Hi MarshalLaw,

May 1942

Japan has attacked Midway again total success Pearl Harbor or so attacked which was not a success an American carrier group in the area helped to drive off the second air attack but at a cost in Europe France steeps up her war with Italy and all is going well the Italian army falls back in to Italy in Germany the first V2 rocket test goes well Adolf Galland meets with Hitler and pushes for a fighter program to concentrate on FW190'S and the first jet fighters HE280 Hitler agrees to the idea In England Winston Churchill becomes the new prime minister and draws up plans to defend England against a possible war with Germany

June 1942

Guam has been lost to Japan American task force withdraws resulting in a high level naval talks and a big shake up in England Churchill withdraws all remaining troops from the far east as he sees Hitler a much bigger threat orders are given to build up the navy and air force Hitler stops all plans to attack Poland on receiving news Mussolini has been killed and in Russia the partisans have attacked and caused massive damage to a number of oil fields

July 1942

Japans war goes well Australia is invaded and surrenders days after Japans invasion
in America the decision is taken no further military action only defensive action and war production stepped up for operations to start in early 1943 in Europe Italy civil unrest breaks out after the army stops all military operations talks are under way with France Hitler sees this as a chance to deal with the problems in western Russia plans to attack Poland put on hold

August 1942

A new government is set up in Italy and breaks all links with Germany Hitler opens talks with General Franco of Spain the talks go well and reveals plans to take control of the Med but no firm plans as yet possible year 1944 in the talks Hitler wants Spain to in pound the British fleet at Gibraltar Franco wants top of the line weapons in exchange for his agreement

Richard
Over to you good answers so far and interesting looking forward to your answers

[MarshalLaw]

May 1942:

English Prime Minister Chamberlain dies of a heart attack and Winston Churchill takes over as Prime minister. Churchill meets with Roosevelt to pledge English help in America's war in the Pacific. Also Germany is discussed and the growing European unrest. In the Pacific America attack Guam in full force and retakes the island. Mid month Japan attacks Midway and takes the island. American forces withdraw to Hawaii. In Germany Adolf Galland meets with Hitler and pushes for a fighter program to concentrate on FW190'S and the first jet fighters HE280 Hitler agrees to the idea, Also Germany's 2nd carrier The Fatherland is completed.

June 1942:
The war with the French goes badly for the Italians. They are pushed back to their borders and France is on the verge of invading Italy. Italian Partisan sympathizers Help the Russians attack the oil fields in the Caucuses causing 35% of lost production. June 20th Mussolini is assassinated in Rome and Italy goes into civil unrest. Five days later Italy surrenders to The French. In late June Japan retakes Guam and America is pushed back to Hawaii. Churchill seeing that the war in the Pacific is going badly recalls all British troops from the far east to defend england against a German threat he sees coming. The American leadership is outraged and calls for Churchill to step down as prime minister.

July 1945:
Japan invades Australia and gets bogged down. Japan is stretched to the limit and can hardly defend it's new territories. America sees its opening and launches a massive attack on Guam, and Midway. Bitter fighting on both islands goes on all month. Things are quiet in Europe, Hitler again has to put the French and Poland invasion on hold as he continues to deal with the Partisans in Russia and now civil unrest in Italy.

More later...........

[MarshalLaw]

Aug. 1942:
Italy forms a new government and breaks all ties with Germany. Civil unrest continues in Italy. Hitler realizes his time table is starting to slip away and calls the general staff together once again to see how soon France and Poland can be invaded. With England recalling their troops from the far east he needs to strike soon before France and England build up their forces too much. The element of surprise is still there but is slipping away. The partisan offensive is back on again with elements of Army group South hunting down partisan pockets.
In the Pacific America retakes Midway and Guam, with Japan stretched so thin, there were no reinforcements available to send to the area. Australia continues to hold out as they make the Japanese pay for every inch of ground they take. Hitler is approached by General Franco of Spain, opening talks go well. Franco is looking for Germany technology to unseat the British at Gibraltar. Hitler considers Franco's proposal, it could be beneficial in the near future.